( SNUG 05 Item 17 ) ---------------------------------------------- [12/20/05]
Subject: PrimeTime-SI vs. CeltIC; VoltageStorm vs. Astro Rail vs. Blast Rail
NOISE & IR DROP -- I'm sure I'm going to get an angry letter from Apache
on this, but for the purposes of this report, I put Redhawk in the "noise"
space (instead of having "dynamic" vs. "static" tool split here):
PrimeTime-SI: ############################ 69%
Cadence CeltIC: ##################### 52%
Apache Redhawk: ## 6%
Magma Blast Noise: # 4%
And to be fair, I forgot to mention Apache Redhawk in my survey question,
too -- so I'm sure that 6% is waaaay too low for them. I can just feel that
angry letter coming... :(
Anyway, these stats show a Magma Achilles heel; Magma users don't use (or
simply don't trust) Blast Noise for SI issues. At 4% apparently nor does
anyone else, either. Everyone would rather use CeltIC or PrimeTime-SI.
What's not shown here is the Synopsys monopoly in static timing analysis
with olde plain vanilla PrimeTime. That use stat is close to 100% by my
gut measure because I have yet to run into any other STA tool the fabs take
at sign-off. Synopsys Sales loves this "in" into Magma & Cadence accounts.
For IR-drop tool use, customers reported:
Simplex VoltageStorm: ######################## 60%
Avanti Astro Rail: ############### 38%
Magma Blast Rail: ########## 25%
What you're seeing here now is how VoltageStorm use spills over into the
Synopsys and Magma tool base. Overall Cadence P&R had 41% of P&R users in
this survey. This means 60% - 41% = 19% leftover IR-drop users using
VoltageStorm in a Magma or Synopsys P&R environment. Cadence Sales loves
this "in" into Synopsys & Magma accounts.
It's also interesting to note that Cadence got its IR-drop when it bought
Simplex and that Synopsys got its IR-drop when it bought Avanti. The only
truely homegrown IR-drop tool here is Magma's.
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From what I've heard from the backend, we are moving more towards
PrimeTime-SI. Take from that what you will.
- Gzim Derti of Agere
One of our engineers made a study that showed PrimeTime/CeltIC had
better correlation against SPICE than PT-SI. In a few cases, PT-SI was
optimistic compared to SPICE. But the run time for PrimeTime/CeltIC
is so long that I am inclined to take PT-SI.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
CeltIC is better than PT-SI. Main reason is that noise propagation tables
are not needed by CeltIC.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We are using AstroRail due to tight P&R tool integration. It has been
working well for us.
In our recent benchmark, we found that Primetime-SI actually correlate
better than CeltIC. It seemed that Primetime-SI has improved in the
past year. We did have some problems in using it last year.
- Wanhao Li of Zoran
All are lousy. I hope some startup can take all the business away from
Magma, Synopsys, Simplex.
We use PrimeTime-SI. It is ahead for corner STA. It is behind on 90 nm
and below.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
VoltageStorm is still ahead in static IR drop. We still use it. But the
market has moved to dynamic and others. Apache and Sequence are ahead in
that space.
PrimeTime-SI has become competitive with CeltIC and may get ahead of it.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Use VoltageStorm and Primetime-SI. PT-SI is more pessimistic but
have not seen it miss any real crosstalk violations.
- Sunil Malkani of Broadcom
We are intensively correlating these tools against golden references and
silicon measurements. BlastRail and VoltageStorm in use today. Both are
so-and-so. PT-SI ties well to PT, which we are using for timing analysis.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
PT-SI is our golden signoff tool for STA and SI (delay noise) but we
use CeltIC for functional (glitch) noise. One project has been working
on PT-SI for functional noise, which took significant effort in library
characterization.
For delay/glitch calculation either PT-SI or CeltIC will be within a few
percent of SPICE. I still can't do without PT for the interactive debug
capabilities.
I prefer VoltageStorm over AstroRail. Both are having issues with
multivoltage power gated designs. These issues are to be addressed
in upcoming releases. Would like to see what PrimeRail can do.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
What about Apache? Vectorless dynamic?
VoltageStorm is a good static tool with better handling of memories
and custom.
PT-SI is good.
Synopsys now has PrimeRail which is closer to catching up with Apache.
Do not know CeltIC.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
IR: Apache Redhawk is ahead of everyone, by far.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We are using VoltageStorm SoC for long time but Cadence is forcing us to
migrate to VoltageStorm PE for $$$. It is painful and I don't like it.
(BTW Conformal is similar situation.) I know now how Cadence is
increasing their revenue.)
We are starting to use Magma BlastRail and using Apache RedHawk.
CeltIC is best technology so far but PrimeTime-SI is catching up CeltIC
after 2 years efforts.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Pretty happy with VoltageStorm and CeltIC for the last 5 yrs.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We use VoltageStorm.
- Tom Mannos of Sandia National Laboratories
Use Astro Rail only. Use Primetime-SI.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
VoltageStorm > BlastRail > AstroRail
CeltIC > PrimeTime-SI
- Benjamin Chen of Socle Tech.
AstroRail is not a signoff quality tool. VoltageStorm and BlastRail do.
CeltIC is less pesimistic than PT-SI.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
1. VoltageStorm
2. AstroRail
3. Magma BlastRail
1. PrimeTime-SI
2. CeltIC
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We use AstroRail - simple to use and no silicon issues. VoltageStorm
is expensive and not trivial to use.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Still like PrimeTime, but AstroRail & Blastrail have some great features.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Using VoltageStorm so nothing to compare. It's OK for IR/EM analysis.
CeltIC is the better. PrimeTime-SI is a OK SI aware STA, but you need
an easy way to fix it.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Simplex VoltageStorm seems to be the leader
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
PT-SI sets the standard. I used CeltIC 3 years ago and there was too
much "black magic" involved. If we didn't like our results, we just
tweaked a few parameters (on the advice of the Cadence AE) and our
results changed.
- Kevin Broe of Britestream Networks
PT-SI is ahead of CeltIC
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Have only used PrimeTime-SI. Typical Synopsys. Obscure and difficult
to learn, requires many iterations to calibrate the tool for useful
results, but in the end, it gets the job done.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
I like PrimeTime-SI.
- Frank Li of Thomson Inc.
VoltageStorm is the best and AstroRail BlastRail are so-so.
PrimeTime-SI is more precise. CeltIC is more fast.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
AstroRail is really good but hard to get to work since there is a lot of
library prep involved. I would say that Simplex VoltageStorm is easier
to use but the results are not as good.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Use VoltageStorm. While better than AstroRail, it is still very buggy
and requires a good bit of AE support.
PrimeTime-SI. Also used CeltIC, but this is too optimistic. Too many
variables and Cadence is learning from us as to what the default values
should be.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We use AstroRail, VoltageStorm, PT-SI and CeltIC. It's not a clean space
as far as how things get done.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We are using VoltageStorm, Apache, CeltIC. We evaluated PrimeTime-SI
and CeltIC. PrimeTime-SI is more accurate, efficient, and faster.
Also it comes with better documentation and programming features.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We like AstroRail and CeltIC. Not lots of hard data here.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
VoltageStorm and CeltIC is ahead.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
VoltageStorm is good. CeltIC is ahead.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
We have only used VoltageStorm (both the digital and the transistor-level
tools). We gained very useful information for tapeouts, but do need to
gauge the ease-of-use against other tools.
We have compared PT-SI quite a bit against CeltIC, and believe PT-SI is
not quite ready for 'primetime.' We will use CeltIC on our next chip.
Although introducing PT-SI would streamline the flow significantly
(since the CTID and associated STA analysis is kept to one tool), we
don't yet feel comfortable with the results, and we still need to
apply CeltIC to do a proper glitch analysis since that capability is
completely underdeveloped in PT-SI.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
1 Simplex VoltageStorm SOC
2 tie between Astrorail and BlastRail
1 PT-SI
2 CeltIC
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Used VoltageStorm. Seems OK for us.
Primetime-SI is a new tool for us. Haven't evaluated CeltIC.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
Magma BlastRail
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
we currently use VoltageStorm, and are evaluating BlastRail.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
BlastRail > AstroRail > VoltageStorm
PrimeTime-SI > CeltIC
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
BlastRail has improved a lot and is comparable to AstroRail for static
and dynamic analysis.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
AstroRail is okay. At least get a result. Can't get there with
Cadence. Not tried Magma. PrimeTime-SI whips CeltIC, especially
in giving less repair iterations.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
For IR-drop in AMS design doesn't exist a real working solution. The
most promising are AstroRail and VoltageStorm. AstroRail a little
bit ahead yet not fully working.
- [ An Anon Engineer ]
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