( ESNUG 444 Item 2 ) -------------------------------------------- [04/25/05]
Subject: non-Magma EDA Users on the Synopsys-Magma Lawsuit
> For non-Magma EDA users, how do you think this lawsuit effects or doesn't
> effect EDA users?
From: Danny Eggleston <danny_eggleston=user domain=maxtor got palm>
Threatening customers is not an approach I would advocate for eventually
converting users to the Synopsys tools -- that is, if Magma does disappear
like Synopsys believes they will.
Magma doesn't seem to be defending themselves in their summary, so if I
was in the market for new tools, I would have to steer clear of Magma
until the dust settles. This is just another nail in their coffin
but I have projects to complete and I can't afford to take the chance
that my company will be held responsible for using a tool that infringed
on someone else's patent.
- Danny Eggleston
Maxtor
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From: [ An Anon EDA User ]
John,
For the record, I'm not a Magma user.
Although it is different from a legal perspective, this case reminds me
of Avanti .vs. Cadence from a business point of view.
The downside for Magma, is that at the very best, they can expect fewer
sales, more development costs, and probably the loss of many employees.
As for Synopsys, they can't take a hard line with the Magma customer
base. It's bad for business.
- [ An Anon EDA User ]
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: [ An Anon EDA User ]
This lawsuit doesn't effect EDA users. Patent lawsuits don't kill
products or companies, at least not right away. The worst thing that
would happen (and it's not that bad) is for Synopsys to buy Magma,
along with their customer base, possibly at a temporarily depressed
valuation.
Most likely, some patent, or even code, cross-licensing will happen,
and some fairly small amount of money may change hands. Then, both
Synopsys and Magma will come out publicly and say that they are
better off than before.
- [ An Anon EDA User ]
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: Gzim Derti <derti=user domain=agere fraught calm>
Hi John,
I was thinking about this the other day. Sounds like we could change
the names to "Cadence" and "Avanti" and have sorta the same situation
that has already come to pass? No?
How long before Cadence buys Magma just like how Synopsys bought Avanti?
Can you say, Quid Pro Quo?
- Gzim Derti
Agere Systems
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: [ An Anon EDA User ]
Hi, John,
My primary concern is the potential loss of a competitor that can help
keep Synopsys motivated in both its development efforts and price
negotiations. It's also becoming more difficult to consider tools from
start-ups (or relatively new companies) for fear that they will become
entangled in legal issues from their entrenched competitors. We already
went through this with both Avanti and Nassda.
- [ An Anon EDA User ]
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: [ An Anon EDA User ]
Hi, John,
I do not typically use either companies software.
The increases in lawsuits that have started to surface in the EDA industry
are a sign of stagnation especially for the prosecution. In the past, EDA
companies moved so fast that the software and algorithms were upgraded in
2 to 3 years. (Too fast for a competitor to get a foot hold.)
The suits also give the industry a bad name. It shows that some companies
feel that it is better to pay lawyers than continue to move the technology
forward. It also makes managers a little more cautious about buying EDA
tools.
- [ An Anon EDA User ]
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: [ An Anon EDA User ]
Hi, John,
We have currently a Synopsys-based flow for our P&R flow. Due to our
internal developments, we were evaluating the possibility of using Magma
for our backend flow. But the more recent developments around this case
have introduced some doubts around this, even though technically we are
favourable to the use. This has lead to the inclusion of other options
and for sure the final decision will take into regard the development
around the lawsuit.
- [ An Anon EDA User ]
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
From: [ An Anon EDA User ]
Hi, John,
I don't think this will affect EDA users at all. The lawsuit will drag on
for years, and when/if it finally concludes, the technology will have
moved on. The usual timeline for something like this is:
-Company A sues Company B for patent infringement
-After a year or two, Company A convinces a technologically illiterate
jury that they are right.
-An injunction is granted preventing company B from selling the
infringing product, but the injunction is "stayed pending an appeal",
and Company B continues selling its product.
-Company B launches it's appeal. After another year or two, they either
win their appeal or there is a settlement.
(An alternate scenario involves Company B launching a countersuit. In this
scenario, the story ends with a joint press release announcing the end of
hostilities and the cross-licensing of each other's patent portfolios.)
This Synopsys-Magmas lawsuit is more of an amusement for EDA users, sort of
like watching Survivor contestants stab each other in the back on TV.
As for Synopsys' other threats, I seriously doubt that any Magma users will
be sued. Here's why:
- Suing your potential customers is a very bad marketing strategy.
Competition in the EDA industry is too stiff for Synopsys to risk
annoying so many potential customers.
- If Synopsys' claims are true, then Magma is the one guilty of patent
infringement, not their customers. I'm no lawyer, but I think Synopsys
would have to make some pretty fancy legal arguments to convince a
judge that Magama's customers are liable for Magma's actions. If I
use a can opener that infringes somebody's patent, can I be sued for
buying the can opener? Do I need to buy a patent license in order
to open a can of beans?
- Even if Synopsys could successfully convince a judge that Magma's
customers are guilty of something, the added cost to Synopsys of
filing all those additional lawsuits would be a major deterrent.
If John Cooley suddenly claimed that he wrote the Harry Potter series,
would he sue J.K. Rowling or her readers? Which would make more
efficient use of Cooley's expensive legal dream team?
So in summary, it would be stupid for Synopsys to sue Magma's customers,
and it would be stupid for any company to take Synopsys' threats seriously.
I think Synopsys is just using the lawsuit to create Fear, Uncertainty
and Doubt among EDA users who are thinking of switching to Magma products.
(By the way, this is not the first time that a company has threatened to
sue their competitors' customers. Henry Ford was sued for infringing a
patent for a "Road Engine" in the early part of the century, but Ford
refused to license the patent and instead chose to fight it in court.
Meanwhile the patent holder threatened to sue Ford's customers. Ford
countered by offering indemnification. The end result? The litigation
dragged on for years with Ford eventually winning. Meanwhile, Ford sales
continued to rise, and the other car companies ended up looking really
dumb for licensing the patent. See http://www.bpmlegal.com/wselden.html
for more details.)
- [ An Anon EDA User ]
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