( ESNUG 384 Item 8 ) -------------------------------------------- [12/06/01]
Subject: How This Synopsys/Avanti Merger Affects Cadence/Magma/Monterey
From: "Kim Hansoo" <gohansoo@hanmail.net>
The most feared senario by Cadence has happened. Cadence never thought
Synopsys would touch a company with a criminal record. No doubt, this
merger will eliminate Cadence P&R business within 1 or 2 years unless
Cadence comes up with dramatically improved products.
- Kim Hansoo
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From: "Chao-lin Chiang" <chaolin_chiang@yahoo.com>
Poor Cadence!
- Chao-lin Chiang
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Hi John,
Please keep me anonymous in this post.
To be honest, I have been expecting this for a while. I always thought
Synopsys doesn't have a good P&R solution and Cadence had been monopolizing
that segment for approximately a decade and the entry of Avanti really made
a HUGE difference! Since the time PKS and the similar Cadence "Integrated
Synthesis & PNR " flow had appeared, I was under an idea that it is high
time that Synopsys buys Avanti and come out with a BETTER product.
(I just hope that would be the result.)
Given the market conditions and the civil case against Avanti, Synopsys has
found the BEST time for this acquisition. It *may* impact the pricing of
Avanti suite and I don't know what will happen to some of the Avanti's
front-end like products (like NOVA RTL etc.) as Synopsys already bought LEDA
on similar front.
In a not-so-short time, I would expect a tightly coupled DC/Apollo solution
that would simply out play every one else in that market segment. If that
happens, Cadence needs to fight real *hard* to keep itself up!
Definitely a very interesting merger - the best ever EDA WAR is ON!!
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From: "Rajiv Mathur" <rajiv.mathur@intel.com>
I think it is a good thing for the design community, and a serious threat to
Cadence. The hope is that the management picks out the best between Synopsys
and Avanti, and develops the tools to support the 30-80 nm generation
technologies in the next 5 years.
However reality may be quite the opposite.
- Rajiv Mathur
Intel
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John,
Anonymously. I can't comment on the effects, since I'm not close enough to
it. However, I do have two questions that I'd like to see answered:
Q1: What does this action really say about Synopsys' management own
assessment of their strengths and weaknesses? (Buying and merging is
high-cost and fraught with risk. You generally do it when you're
convinced your own people aren't up to the job, or they can't do it
in time.)
Q2: Is this the best news Cadence has had in a long time? (Given the EDA
track record of corporate mergers, where the merger was much less than
the sum of the parts.)
BTW: We're now an all-Cadence house. I just had my first Ambit/PKS/SE
training. Now it's time to see how the other half lives. Synopsys sales
decided to drive us away, and for once, their sales drive succeeded... :)
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From: "Michael Zaslavsky" <michael.zaslavsky@intel.com>
It is a good thing, and a natural merge, since Synopsys has strong positions
in the front end, while Avanti is good in back end tools.
It also could be a smooth transition, because the people at Avanti differ
from those in the smaller companies, that Synopsys had not an easy time to
absorb. Avanti guys are used to working in a big company.
In my experience, Synopsys has more aggressive sales forces, which can help
now to promote Avanti products as well.
Anyway, I am more curious now about the future of Cadence.
- Michael Zaslavsky
Intel Corp.
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Hi John,
Here is my 2 cents. Please keep my name anonymous.
Short term I believe it is good news for every ASIC designer, even Cadence
customers.
1. For Synopsys and Avanti users, they probably have been combining their
products for years. This removes the worry on Avanti's future. Avanti
operates its business family style, giving personal care in terms of
pre-sales and support. For P&R products, all what I have seen is that
they use the same AE(s) for pre-sales and support (probably backed by
some specialists). What you see during evaluation is what you are going
to get later (WYSIWYG). They try to sell their P&R tools by getting
your engineers involved, not the other way around. I doubt whether you
get same from Cadence.
2. Synopsys has very mature and proven synthesis technology. Their SolvNet
is also helpful (I only search the DC related part). You see a lot of
true user participation instead of vendor presentation at SNUG.
Switching such investment is not easily acceptable. Designers don't want
to learn another tool with similar capability while having both hands
busy. A bunch of buggy translators for switching usually convinces the
top level management but pisses off the users. The only advantage
Cadence used to take is that Avanti doesn't have synthesis, but lawsuit
and Synopsys doesn't have CTS and Router (as long as you buy from both
vendors, you have all.) PKS tries to differentiate from this. But PKS
is not a seamless integration, PKS routing & extraction not running
standalone. (That means Ambit database, Wroute database, HLDS database,
a new SPC database, plus pre-beta genesis database). Even though they
are integrated, how much additional value it provides? I'd rather do
one week scripting work on PhysOpt and Apollo/Astro so that I have
confidence not only each pieces but also the integration and automation.
What's more it saves your quarter million per seat (list price.)
3. For the digital flow, Cadence has its advantages on "marketing", rather
than "technology". This put Cadence in a position that they have to
focus on technology rather than marketing and sales or service. Of
course it can focus on lawsuit. A civil lawsuit won't help you to
improve your technology, perhaps the other party will do (like what
happened before.) Engineers care more about whether they can get the
chip out easily with less hassles, let the jury and judge do their job.
4. If Cadence focuses on the newly acquired First Encounter, by adding RTL
analysis at front-end, re-structuring with IPO, and the extractor and
router at the backend, it is going to be a productive flow. End the
life of PKS and then Cadence will maintain its competency.
Long term is not predictable. Users may face the choice either totally go
with Cadence or Synopsys in the future.
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From: "Eli Dagan" <elid@teracross.com>
Dear John,
Although I am a Cadence user, this is excellent news.
If these companies merge their tools well, PhysOpt+PT+Apollo+(all the best
features from each company such as Nova, DFT, etc) into one environment,
they will beat Cadence. They will be the current best environment plus
tools in the market.
- Eli Dagan
TeraCross Ltd.
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I think it is great news. I believes it means that Cadence will have the
credible competition needed to make sure they stay honest in the P&R field.
I suspected Synopsys would win the battle of how to merge synthesis and P&R.
I was not sure exactly how they would make a complete offering. I believe
this move answers that question.
My fears are:
1) That the Avanti/Cadence feud may force Synopsys into not supporting
Cadence P&R faster than they might otherwise have done.
2) That Synopsys will be so full of themselves that they will price the
PhysOpt-through-P&R flow even further outside the realm of the small
customer (such as my fabless company.)
3) That Cadence falters in their effort to provide Synopsys with credible
competition in the new physical synthesis flow.
Anonymous please. Thanks for the valuable service you provide, especially
to those of us far from the jungle drums reverberating in Silicon Valley.
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From: "Paul Miranda" <paul.miranda@amd.com>
It's good news for designers short-term (under 2 years out), since this will
hopefully mean a real, integrated RTL-to-GDS flow with the best quality.
Long term, this could be bad, since Synopsys will feel less need to improve
their toolset, unless a miracle happens and Cadence comes out with major
improvements. Also, Synopsys will feel much less need to accommodate
"openness" in its flows to companies like Magma and Monterey.
- Paul Miranda
AMD
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John,
Wow! Synopsys and Avanti? Huge problem for Cadence. Combining Avanti's
superior back-end tools with Synopsys' top-of-the-line synthesis tools, and
Cadence is hosed. If Cadence can't stop this one in court, either by
blocking the merger or killing off the Avanti P&R tools, they are going to
go through some tough times. Of course, all of this depends on SyVanti's
ability to execute on linking their two big tools -- not an easy feat and
one which Synopsys has no track record of achieving.
Plus Synopsys' sales people already have a bad attitude. This won't help
one bit. I'd short their stock.
Anonymous, obviously.
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From: "Mark Wroblewski" <markwrob@colorado.cirrus.com>
John,
I think this is good news and bad news -- but mostly good news.
Based on historical data, Synopsys will likely do a good job integrating
the Avanti tools they decide to keep into their toolset framework, after
perhaps a false start or two.
Meanwhile, the Avanti user base should feel better knowing that the main
tools they have come to "know and love" will continue to be available. I
haven't been following their financial situation closely, but surely all
the negative news about the Avanti top brass and the court case has cast
a huge pall on the long-term aspects for Avanti as a standalone corporation.
So it's good news for Synopsys users (who in many cases are also Avanti users
and should now benefit from better integration after a year or two) and for
Avanti users, too. But who is it bad news for?
With Avanti in the Synopsys fold, there is more space for another independent
firm to make its mark on the EDA world. I for one don't think it will be too
long before another EDA upstart makes its presence known.
I think it's also especially bad news for Cadence. While their corporate
officers may simply shrug this off, I believe this merger hits them where
it hurts the most. They've been struggling to get PKS production worthy,
trying to add synthesis to their place and route tools. But their toolsets
and framework were always kind of ad hoc (some would say baling wire and
spit) and they've had predictable results. Meanwhile, Synopsys looked
from their position of strength (synthesis) and forged a new approach based
on their strength and an astute analysis of the most basic problem in the
backend flow. The result is PhysOpt, and it is off to such a good start
that even many small firms are beginning to shell out the 4X DC price to
start working with it. Now that Synopsys will add what many consider to be
best-in-class place and route to their toolset, Cadence must feel great
pressure.
As a Synopsys user for many years, I have never been too happy about the
pricetags attached to their products. I and my managers have grudgingly
signed the paperwork necessary to keep using their tools because they were
the best at synthesis and became sign-off tools over the years. I guess
I'm willing to cut them some slack on the Avanti deal because at least for
now I like the glimpses of their vision that I've gotten to see.
- Mark Wroblewski
Cirrus Logic Broomfield, CO
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John,
If they settle the Avanti/Cadence lawsuit, that is overall a good thing
for the industry. This has got to hurt Cadence, which is also a good
thing, since they haven't released or updated a good product in some time.
(Integration Ensemble comes out when?)
We really need to wait to see how product packaging shakes out after the
merger, but for the record, I want to hear 3 things from Synopsys/Avanti:
1. Jupiter will be allowed to use PhysOpt and have access to
DesignWare parts.
2. Avanti's clock placement, clock router, and detailed router
will be unbundled from Astro, so it doesn't cost me $1M for
a routing tool.
3. What database will the Avanti tools use?
If I hear the first two things, I'm a very happy camper. If I don't hear
them, it diminishes the advantages of the merger. Changing existing Avanti
products (Hercules, e.g.) to Synopsys licensing practices isn't going to
make the products any more attractive unless they find a way to add value.
Please make my comments anonymous.
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From: "Michael Goodlett" <goodlett@dalsemi.com>
John,
The EDA landscape is going a similar direction as the PC landscape. If you
can't beat'em, acquire'em.
- Mike Goodlett
Dallas Semiconductor Dallas, TX
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From: "Yossi Rindner" <yossir@isdn.net.il>
Hi John
I believe it is a positive change.
Finally there is one company that owns good synthesis and good layout tools.
This is an opportunity for Synopsys to generate a good timing convergence
flow and save iteration time from many ASIC designers which I believe was a
burden for all.
I thinks that this new situation will drive Cadence for improving their PKS
and will generate a healthy competition between Synopsys and Cadence, from
which the ASIC designers will only benefit, price and performance wise.
- Yossi Rindner
ASIC Serve, Ltd.
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From: Mike Schelling <mike.schelling@att.net>
Hi John,
Synopsys has been developing its next generation of backend tools with
its Tier 1 customers. With Avanti stung by Cadence and heavily dependent
upon Synopsys' synthesis suite as its frontend, Synopsys could have easily
buried them when they introduced their new product to the rest of its
customers. But there is also much advantage to joining up with Avanti;
tapping into a ready staff of physical design specialists/AEs, as well as
being able to scoop the Avanti customers and IP.
I'm also generally pleased that in another sense, Synopsys and Avanti are
giving Cadence a good noogie.
- Mike Schelling
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From: "Robert Wiegand" <RWiegand@NxtWaveComm.com>
Hi John,
With the Cadence purchase of Silicon Perspective, Synopsys can't afford to
let Cadence buy their way into the power user realm any further.
In the short term, I think this is good news for Avanti users, since it
gives the tools a stable home. If history is any indicator, however, it
could be bad news long term in the areas of overlap.
For example, Synopsys buys Motive and eventually kills it in favor of their
own STA tool, Primetime, even though Motive was once way ahead of Primetime.
I personally can't complain since I wasn't a Motive user, and I'm sure
Primetime benefited from the experience, but I bet there might have been a
few pissed off Motive users out there. Another example, Synopsys buys
Sunrise and eventually kills it in favor of TetraMax. TetraMax is better
for the experience, but I think there are some nifty features from Sunrise
like partial scan tradeoff analysis between area, pattern count, and coverage
that are not duplicated in Tetramax. Doesn't Avanti own Chrysalis? What do
you think will happen there? For users of Avanti's backend tools, now might
be a good time to get some eval licenses for the Synopsys back end tools.
Let's look at the alternative -- what if Cadence bought Avanti?
Well, before Ambit was bought by Cadence, it was a very credible threat to
Design Compiler. Synopsys responded with significant improvements in DC98.02
in features, runtime, QOR, and the quality if the release itself (there were
very few service pack revs.) I was involved in the beta test, so I was an
early adopter. I have a marketing poster for DC98 that has a quote from
Chris Malachowsky (right above mine) that says: "...The combination of
improved runtime, better QOR, and minimized total slack makes DC'98 the most
significant Design Compiler release in recent memory." I agree with him
whole heartedly. DC 99 had 6 service pack revs for both the 05 and the 10
releases. That's 14 releases in 1 year! With the Ambit threat subdued by
Cadence, it would seem there was a little less effort put into the quality
of DC's releases. Competition is a good thing, and the Ambit purchase
effecively reduced competition. Silicon Perspective was rocking Chip
Architect's world, prompting the Hidden Dragon response.
I hate to say it, but this looks like a perfect setup for history to repeat
itself. If Cadence had bought Avanti, it would reduce competition again.
My guess is that the Avanti backend tools will not develop much farther, the
Synopsys backend tools will absorb a good bit of the features, and Avanti
customers will get an offer they can't refuse on the transition to Synopsys
tools.
- Bob Wiegand
NxtWave Communications Langhorne, PA
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