( ESNUG 384 Item 9 ) -------------------------------------------- [12/06/01]
Subject: This Merger Is Generally A Good Match For Both Synopsy & Avanti
From: "Ricardo Rodriguez" <ricardor@bops.com>
Good. Otherwise, Cadence would hose up the backend.
- Ricardo Rodriguez
BOPS, Inc.
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From: eka@corp.cirrus.com (Eka Laiman)
Synopsys now has a complete set of abilities from synthesis to the back-end.
The only thing missing is the "cell layout" ability.
- Eka Laiman
Cirrus
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John,
If you use these comments please don't use my name on this one. There are
too many "I told you so" situations.
When my project had a decision on physical optimization there were two flows,
Magma (which our mgmt pushed) and PhysOpt (which was being discouraged.) We
use Avanti for our standard back end flow. Although I had to do some
manipulation of databases and write some Perl scripts to glue PhysOpt into
Avanti, the whole thing worked. We ended up having a discrepancy of 0.1 nsec
on a 3.3 nsec clock in post-route timing, and this was always (ALWAYS) the
path that PhysOpt indicated would be a problem. No surprises.
So, why swim up stream? For one, your tapeout surveys indicated that PhysOpt
was outpacing the competors. If so many people were having success with the
tool, then it certainly must work. I could see PhysOpt's placer was very
good even from the trial passes we did. You also have to have very good,
leading edge routing and timing extraction tools, which Avanti has.
The way that I saw the flow:
Synopsys: Generally the choice for synthesis and optimization, best
algorithms available at the time. Good placement engine in PhysOpt and
sufficient control to accomplish most tasks. Text files in and out, so
there was plenty of room for "adjustments". All they were missing was
the router and parasitic extraction.
Avanti: Even though they have had all of the publicly displayed legal
problems, people still use their tools. Sort of like that cousin that
you have, the one that you wouldn't associate with except that he is the
best at obtaining discount stereo equipment you've ever known. (Not that
I know someone like that, but, John, you probably do. :->)
Everyone else: May have great, even superior backend (from gates to placed
and routed gates) tools available, but they don't have the synthesis and
the optimization engines and can't get them.
Synopsys now has the whole picture, from RTL-to-P&Red gates. Each one of
these other players need to acquire the half that they were missing.
Synopsys was the only one that had a chance at this and they just pulled
it off.
A little long, but I've been justifying the use of PhysOpt to people for so
long at my company, and now what I told them would most likely happen has.
I did not predict it would be Avanti, just someone.
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From: "Al Czamara" <czamara@zaiqtech.com>
Hi, John.
I think it's good news for Synopsys, as they are buying a market leader in
physical design -- a place where Synopsys has a weakness; it seems like a
good match for them. Avanti is weak on front-end design, where Synopsys
has strength.
The downside is that there will be less competition, it seems.
- Al Czamara
Zaiq Technologies Marlboro, MA
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From: Imon Kalyan Choudhury <imonkalchoudhury@yahoo.com>
Sure, John, this is great news. I am a front end digital design engineer and
have been working with Synopsys for 2 years. My back-end colleagues say
Avanti is a great tool to work with. Under such circumstances, I feel the
industry mood is really upbeat. Sure, this is good news for us all.
- Imon Kalyan Choudhury
U & I System Design Ltd. Bangalore, India
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From: Wanhao Li <WLi@teralogic.tv>
John,
I am the current customer of Avanti backend tools. I think it is good for
everybody except Cadence. The customers will get both the assurance of
Avanti's survival and great integration between synthesis and physical
design/optimization. I think both Synopsys and Avanti realized that they
couldn't make their tools work perfectly without some tight synergy and
integration.
I am also happy that my Apollo experience will not become obsolete.
- Wanhao Li
TeraLogic, Inc.
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From: "Benjamin Mbouombouo" <benm@lsil.com>
Hi John,
This is a good news because they'll consolidate the front-end and back-end
(PhyOpt and a real backend design flow) and hopefully in the same database.
Till now, we did believe that Synopsys will address all these emerging UDSM
issues. But now with Avanti, I guess this will be easier than before.
However, UDSM and design-for-manufacturability will really dictate the flow.
Avanti has lost a lot of good guys after the trial with Cadence. Synopsys
needs a proper ramp up here.
Now the 2 poles in the ASIC EDA will be Synopsys and Cadence, with Synopsys
having with a better front-end background and Cadence with a better back-end.
- Ben Mbouombouo
LSI Logic, Inc.
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Hi John,
Please make my name anonymous.
We at our company definitely think it will be advantageous for us (we are
design service company) mainly because we have invested a lot in Synopsys
tools, but were lagging behind in Avant tools, which some customers were
asking us to have. So, this merger will take that pressure off for us.
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From: "Michael Jenkins Brown" <michaeljb@us.ibm.com>
This is a bad thing and a good thing.
When an industry gets smaller, consumer choices are limited. That may be a
bad thing. "SynVanti" will have a lock on a large portion of the industry.
While I don't know what the estimated market share of the combined companies,
I can only guess that it will be significant.
However, collaboration between industry leaders may be a good thing. I can
only imagine what will happen when the engineers at either company look at
the other's code and say, "Oh! That's how you guys were doing that!". As
a result of sharing data, IP, and trade secrets, the tools resulting from the
Synopsys/Avanti merger will probably be some of the best we have ever seen.
- Michael Jenkins Brown
IBM
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From: "Dave Peeters" <dpeeters@gte.net>
I think this is great news. I have always thought that whoever provides the
shortest path from RTL to GDSII will have the winning solution. Seems like
a sure thing for Synopsys, IF they can integrate the Avanti folks. (I'm not
sure how many key folks are left or will stick around) and link all of this
together...)
- Dave Peeters
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Of course this is anonymous.
Personally, I think it is bad news. Synopsys & Avanti have both shown their
arrogance towards customers, through their pricing, practices (look at
their licensing agreements), tool flows, and the attitude of their sales
peoploids. This will probably increase the cost of tools. Probably decrease
interoperability.
On the upside (if there is one) and if they behave in a rational manner, we
may at last get a behavioral/HDL to GDSII design flow that does not make
people jump through hoops because of interface license issues and poorly
conceived data structures.
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From: "Iyad Hadba" <iyad.hadba@mindspeed.com>
I think it is a step to help back-end process become more efficient and less
time consuming. I hope integrated back-end tools will not take a long time
to develop.
- Iyad Hadba
MindSpeed Technologies Newport Beach, CA
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From: "Santosh Boddula" <santosh.boddula@analog.com>
It is good news. Now we can expect more wide range of tools from Synopsys.
- Santosh Boddula
Analog Devices, Inc.
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From: charles.lai@mindspeed.com
I think it is a very good move and going to benefit design community a lot.
This gives Synopsys a whole suites of "prefered backend tools". If it can
quickly integrate seamless into the PhysOpt flow it will be a winner. It
definitely will put a lot of pressures on the Cadence and others.
I have speculated that this would happen for a while after looking how
Synopsys took over the VCS from Viewlogic.
- Charles Lai
Mindspeed Technology, Inc. Westborough, MA
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